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Tuesday, December 8, 2009

Do Away with the IAS Exam


Yesterday evening,I had a chance to talk to my friends grandfather who served in The Indian Army during the Second World War.Our conversation drifted from one topic to another, until like most "argumentative Indians" ,we were discussing politics.And what followed was pure shock and disbelief,as twining his left mustache the old soul said "Beta jin logo ne angrezo ka zamana dekha hya ,woh aaj ka deskh dekh kar udas hote hya " ( those who have seen the British India,are just saddened at the plight of current Independent India")As I drove back home on thea cold December night,I thought about what the old man had just told me and eventually found him quite correct.
Independent India under the shroud of so called "democracy" ,is actually a nation of power hungry veterans,its a land where misuse is a rule rather than an exception.Its a jungle rule out here..."Survival Of The Fittest",...where your fitness is determined by your networking with the netas and babus.If we do a deep analysis ,none would be more responsible for the current crisis than the so called exclusive Indian IAS Officers.
The Indian Civil Services were started by the Britishers to select people from the Indo British Empire who could effectively implement policies framed in a foreign land.Over the years ,as with most Indian laws India adapted the system completely without realizing the need for changes that a dynamically changing democratic country like ours required.In addition the Indian Government over the years did away with various checks that the Britishers had put on their Civil officers to control the misuse of power,something that is so inherent in nature of all Indians.
Over the years ICS has been transformed to the IAS,the "bada sahib" and the "collector sahab" has transformed to "Indian Babu" and the motly "Ambassdors" of yester years have given to suave "lancers" but the "RED LIGHT" still lingers on .Despite the increasing temptations and ever increasing challenges that CIVIL SERVANTS have to face everyday the UPSC has changed little in the selection process of the top civil servants of the country.No wonder the UPSC and IAS Exam have failed the country.For every Sandhya Jain of RTI fame ,we have 100 corrupt Goswamis.With such a high faliure rate,clearly the process of filtering the candidates to top posts in India ,needs a major revamp.
Before I go on to out rightly criticizing the current selection process,let me analyze the principal requirements that an IAS officer must be endowed in today's challenging work environment.
1)High analytical skills and ability to come up with practical innovative solutions to meet challenging needs of Indian Sub Continent (rather than blindly copying standard western solutions)
2)Ability to keep an integrative moral and ethical standard under high performance and political pressures
3)Advanced knowledge of the particular field in which the IAS officer is supposed to deliver solutions
4)Ability to identify and respect the ground realities of Indian people and various supporting staff whose services are required to implement a particular solution
5)Ability to differentiate between social and commercial achievements of a particular task
6)Ability to implement a challenging solution while working in cross functional teams with people from different cultural backgrounds and people of different educational levels

The current IAS selection process is a three staged one.Beginning with a multiple choice preliminary paper which tests candidates on general studies and an optional subject (where most candidates take high scoring papers like psychology etc )followed by a main exam which tests candidates on two languages,a General studies paper and optional papers.The candidates who qualify the main exam then have to attend one interview.The candidates qualifying interview are allocated to various Civil Services on basis of combined scores of Main exam and Interview

A little thought on the above process and we can easily conclude that the process fails to test candidates on almost all of the above counts.While their is no stage (except a short interview) where candidates are tested on their analytical ability,what is worse is that candidates are tested on parameters which are useless.What is the need of testing candidates on optional subjects like psychology ,mathematics or history.I fail to see any significant role being played by knowledge of these subjects in performance of duties expected of a civil servant.Whats worse ,UPSC is known not even use the simple process of normalization while comparing performance in different optional subjects.(Is UPSC headed by fools or what..normalization is the basic of stats)To prove my point..would administrators like Sardar vallabh Bhai Patel or ancient strategists like Chanakya have been able it to make IAS .If not ,your system is flawed and needs to be revamped.Most aspirants point out that the flaws of written exam is made out by a rigorous final interview ,which is conducted by the who's who of modern India.I beg to differ on this.One interview can never successfully test candidate on multiple and challenging parameters on which a candidate is expected to deliever.Moreover IAS interviews are notorious to being conducted on the whims and fancies of panelists rather than a scientific selection procedure.Moreover most of the times the focus is more on testing the candidate on his knowledge rather than his approach to a problem,his creativity,his analytical ability and his moral integrity.
Most of the Western Counteries including our beloved UK ,that gifted us the Civil Examination system have done away with similar systems of selecting their civil servants.Among othe flaws already discussed above,the present system fails to allocate and use specialized knowledge of the candidates to specific domains.For eg a doctor can be made head of civil engineering dept and vice verse and then shifted to public reforms after a year.Most Western Countries now follow a competitive direct recruitment or Campus recruitment process.What do you think would be better recruiting IIT/IIM grads for running specific departments or babus selected from an old cracking system,the whole world has left behind.The top MNC's of the world recruit direct talent from our campuses and are certainly much more efficient than the "babu" system.So why is the government so shy to offering direct opportunities to our IIT/IIM grads who would love working with government but not waste few years of their lives preparing for a useless exam
So we need a revamp and we need it quick .Heres what I think should be done with the current system:
1)The openings at IAS level be filled in two ways and a specific ratio be mantained to the way in the use of following ways:
a)direct recruitment from premier Indian Campuses like IIT's,IIM,s,NIT and other premier universities (Planning Commission has already started recruiting from IIm's and IIt's)
b)The openings be filled by promotion of high caliber people already present in specific departments
2)Institute high growth accelerated programs for making the IAS service attractive.Establish quantitive performance matrices which be used for pay hikes,payment of variable pay and promotions through out the careers.Abolish the phenomena time bound promotions.In addition any IAS officers who fails to deli ever below a set standard be asked to leave the service
3)Recruitment be done as per requirements in specific departments.This MBA's be hired for heading administrative positions in districts while doctors be hired for administration in helathcare etc
4)A specific recruitment programme with tests on analytical ability,problem solving and psychometric be established to give chance to those candidate who are not studying in premier universities but have ability to deliver
5)A specific ratio be maintained for candidates selected through campuses and recruitment programmes

The above reforms might sound daring to some and foolish to others but they are really a need of the hour.In a competitive world which India hopes to dominate in near future if our "babus" continue to lurks in howlish circles of corruption ,greed and misuse of power,I have only one thing to say "GOD SAVE MY COUNTRY"..WAKE UP UPSC..perhaps somebody is listening

40 comments:

  1. i completely agree with your thoughts that change is required...plus with the implementation of sixth pay commission, people would love a job with both power and money..
    One thing still remains whether recruiting from prestigious institutes like IIM and IIT would prevent corruption...

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  2. my dear friend you are living in an oblivion about the IAS officer . just go and check how many policies every year are made. If you check out any year book you will find every detailed possible solutions in policies framed by these beaurocrats.But question here is how many of these policies are implemented and why ? Or other way around.
    i think this will be a simple task. you will get all your answers.
    another point i want to highlight here that you said about IIT's or IIM's but can u ans y people want to do MBA?
    i have more to say but it will be more intersting if you include some strong facts to bolster your points.

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  3. @anonymous
    1)I agree a large no. of policies are framed but the very fact that they are not implemented or are not implementable points out to the caliber of our officers.
    2)www.civilservice.gov.uk..this is how Western Governments are hiring their Civil Servants
    3)Reason for non implementation
    a)High level of corruption at top levels (highly aidied by civil servants).I ask you a question:ministers are their for 5 years and do you think they are so intelligent that they can corrupt so easily without aid of top beuraucrats
    b)Standard western solutions (eg VAT,Education reforms ,Computerised tax payments etc)copied without taking into consideration the uniqunes of Indian problems
    c)Lack of domain expertise eg I know ex secretary of mines who are actually from economic background..wats more during their tenure they have not worked more than 2-3 years for mining sectors
    3)Relevence of IIT/IIM grads:
    a)Proven track record of strong analytical ability and problem solving skills
    b)Delievered high performance in competitive MNC enviornment
    c)I agree MBA attracts people because of high paying jobs...but vouching for a high paying job is one thing and misuse of power completely another (if I got your point correctly)
    There are lot of facts that can be pointed out,please be more specific as to what you are looking for...your comments currently are very vague...write to me at trehan.sumeet1@gmail.com...my gtalk id is trehan.sumeet1
    In addition you can post more comments here

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  4. In addition to Sumeet's reply I would like to point out that most of our best civil servants are IIT/IIM grads ,most of them dont join civil services as they dont want to waste 2-3 years preparing for an exam
    Moreover the bone of contention here is that if we have a better system avaliable why not use that one insted of an old system.Agreed our civil servent are of high caliber but maybe if we change thing we would get even better

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  5. The basis of your argument is that the executives of MNCs are more efficient which itself is wrong.
    MNC employees work in a rarefied environment and a specialisation knowledge is enough to do it.The idea of comparing this with bureaucrats who works with common people ,politicians and industries itself is flawed.
    Analytical abilities are tested in the G.S paper of the exam.Missing analytical questions can cost the candidates the entry to the service.
    Besides this the essay paper and other subjective papers are valued based on the thought process of the candidate.ie the candidate is supposed not to write the correct answer or correct points but also in the correct way.The strict limit on the wordlimit itself is a constraint.
    While good knowledge on any two subjects is essential this alone is not enough into get entry to the cadres.A civil servant is not a scientist to do research in a subject and give expert opinion.All he need to do is to work closely with the people and people's representatives and also fully comprehend what experts are saying or what is the latest developments in a field which can be used for the common good.
    I dont understand your contention that candidates don`t need expertise in a particular optional subject.Knowledge in mathematics,psychology or literature itself is a reflection of candidates analytical,logical and verbal abilities.
    MCQs alone are not enough to test these abilities, which anyway is there.
    We must not forget that the civil service in the country, besides allegation of corruption,nepotism etc which ofcourse are true, has also done a remarkable job of keeping the wheels of governance moving with the times.
    Running specific dept is important but how are you expecting a guy directly out of IIT/IIM to do the governance of the country.Administration is not management of MNC :it require wide knowledge

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  6. From the language of arguments put forward by you in the post above,we can conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that either you are an aspiring civil services candidate or one who has just cleared one.As such your strong support for the rotting system ,is but psychological.However let me answer all the objections raised by you point by point
    1)Your first contention that working in civil services is different than working in MNC's because they have a well rarefied working environment is quite wrong.If you have worked in MNC's you would understand what I mean.MNC's due to their large structure tend to be infected with same kind of office politics and inefficiencies that our government has.Thats why most MNC HR deptt tend to recruit young MBA's at high level positions to maintain an optimum mix.Candidates are reqd to bring changes in an inflexible system.
    Even if we assume your contention were true,in that case we have even more reasons to change the structure of our selection process ,so that we can select candidates who can work in a corrupt , inefficient system and produce results.Numerous business leaders like Jack Welch and others have turned around mammoth organisations.I fail to remember name of significant civil servants
    2)Your second contention regarding analytical abilities.I scanned past year UPSC preliminary,mains and essay papers.The preliminary papers on an average do not have more than 205 paper checking you on analytical abilities(even if you call those questions IQ questions i.e.),the essays are a piece of sham,a high level of slogging over a year and any person can produce a quality essay..they are not even case studies.There is no publically available information that suggests you are penalized in a major way for leaving analytical questions in Civil Serv. exam. In fact if i remember correctly UPSC asks stupid questions like GDP growth and GDP numbers to third decimal place
    3)You seem to be making contrary statements.While on one hand you contend that an IAS officer is not supposed to be an expert and deliver expert opinion.On the other hand you say that knowledge of optional subjects are a reflection of your aptitude,knowledge etc.If knowledge is not required why should we even test it
    Moreover instead of testing candidates on such foolish subjects wont it be better to have increased round of interviews and better psychometric testing to judge originality and consistency of ideas and opinions.Most of management consultancy companies have 4-5 round of interviews before final selection.While in India we select our civil servants on basis of just one interview (which has only 50% weight age..i haven't cross checked this fact though)
    4)If you say that civil servants have done good service to keep wheels of governance running,either you have a very low standard of judgment or I have a very high standard.However to add some quantitative data,a recent World bank report puts India on 56 percentile (among 218 countries)on civil governance index.A recent survey puts our bureaucracy as the worst is asia..check this link http://www.karmayog.org/governance/governance_24378.htm

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  7. @arun contd...
    5)You say how is a fresh graduate out of IIT/IIM is supposed to deliver better governance when it requires wide knowledge
    a)Most IIM grads and PG IIT grads have a previous work experience.I don't think UPSC gives any weightage to previous work experience while final selections..so this way you are getting candidates who have more practical work experience
    b)UPSC exam at best tests candidates only on optionals and GS.You can test the optional in an interview if you do campus recruitment (since reduction in target audience can result in better usage of stressed interview resources).Similarly the connection of future civil servants with people can be better tested via means like group exercises,previous college work on social welfare schemes (IITs runs large social schemes for surrounding communities).So you have twin advantages.One one hand you have candidates who have a proven track record of excellent problem solving and expertise in particular areas.On other hand better utilization of stressed and limited interview resources can result in more interviews and more innovative methods of testing
    Finally the BOTTOM LINE is the rotting system has been replaced in most countries of world,it has failed in India ..what are we waiting for

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  10. To begin with I am working with an MNC.I dont think such things are very important on the point we are discussing.On the same line I could have argued that your argument is blindly based on your(and mine too) inability to jump to govt service from private sector.Lets leave that and go into the validity of your argument.
    1)When I stated that MNC employees work in a rarefied environment I was quoting none more than the business icons ,Nilekani and Narayanamurthy the former having the experience of working in both the sectors.
    The primary aim of a 'company' and govt is different.Companys work on the principle of increasing the value of the shareholder or bluntly 'profit'.the govt is not a big company and it never was.The principle on which a govt is working is much more complex to state here.
    I dont know what new structure of exam are you proposing but surely not the MCQ types..Surely like every system there should be always scope of improvement and in this examination system also it is there....but I dont see much validity in the alternate suggestions....
    Iam sorry that you are unable to recollect the quality civil servants this country alone has produced.Jack Welch was the CEO of a private company (again you somehow have got the notion that govt is a big private company...and govt is a separate entity working to benefit itself the success of which can be measured by revenue collected)..the election system in India was not the private property of Mr T.N.Sheshan,the IAS the private property headed by S.Ranganathan or the police dept the private company with Ms
    Kiran Bedi at its helm(hope you got the diff)....you are comparing apples and oranges.
    2)Since you are not well aware of the difficulty to pass the exam and how competitive the nature of the exam is,there is no point in discussing this.
    I can give a no of questions in DI of CAT or in GMAT or GRE which any 8th standard student can do.Does that mean CAT and GRE are stupid exams and they don't test analytical abilities well?.
    Have you seen any essays in the essay paper written by a candidate who successfully passed the exam.impossible is nothing but to call the essay paper ,1 year slogging, and sham ..what to say ....I request you to get in touch with someone who is in the competition...
    one`s inborn gifts in logical ability cannot replace general knowledge or the art of essay writing ,the things which a civil servant should surely possess.....

    3)The pattern is set such that you need to have a wide knowledge of everything under sun and a deep knowledge of two subjects.Yes I agree I was less than clear on this point.yes to an extent i agree to the point that the exam is made cumbersome coz you have two optionals..anyway law,sociology,public administration etc are highly relevant to any civil servant....but the optionals such as physics or zoology will do good only if he is in health care or science dept(but its a complicated prblm.so one who has mastered in maths and talented in it and also capable of passing all the G.S questions is not welcomed to civil service???) ....


    4)The exam system is not the reason for corruption in civil service.The excessive power enjoyed by the civil servants (especially in the licence raj era) may have given them more chance for corruption and form nexus with politicians.
    But to say that if it were a direct recrutee from IIM/IIT/ISB/ there would have been less corruption is too much to take..Moreover it is very important that those who enter the service(if for any governance or administrative post ) should have a thorough knowledge of constitution ,law and social sciences(not just aptitude)...Being from IIT/IIM/ISBs does not guarantee this.Again your contention that MBAs shoul be hired for administaration of district is in fact funny..pls understand the difference between being the manager of XYZ company and using that same yardstick for a person who holds enormous constitutional power as a distric magistrate...Its just like saying refrees in fooball matches to be made as judges in courts...

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  11. 5)Iam aware of the interview process of MNCs.
    I agree that interviews always have a problem of going in with the whims and fancies of the interviewer...But I don`t think there is an alternative.It fundamentally checks your personality.And I fully agree that there should be an additional psychometric test....
    I am posting a link of a candidate ,which i found in the net,who passed the exam
    but got less marks in interview ,anyway got selected based on the mains performance...Tell me whether you know any MNC interview which comes anywhere near this,and what else interview you recommend for the one in public domain..(leave psychometry I agree on that)
    http://anuragsbuzz.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-upsc-interview-results-are-not-yet.html

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  12. @arun
    I think there are some points where we seem to agree,and some crevices are still wide open.So let me first answer the arguments which still lie unanswered:
    1)Your basic contention seems to be there is a difference in working of MNC's and Admnistration.I agree with you on this one BUT
    a)if you had read my blog thoroughly,you would have noticed that I had mentioned the "ability to differentiate between commercial and social achievements" as one of key crierias to judge candidates
    b)As far as MNC culture goes,I wouldnt really count Infosys as an MNC,when I talked of Jack Welch ,I was talking of an organisation,similar in size and complexityof a government (If you read Mr. Welchs boigraphy,you would appreciate the problems assosciated with large MNC,s like inflexibility,old peers at helm etc are quite similar to challenges faced by Indian Civil Servants)
    c)I agree we should test candidates on above parameters,but i fail to see how the current UPSC exam tests the candidates on these things.Are you referring to essay (I will elucidate this on points below)or the prelims(which is one of the worst designed papers as per some of my friends who have CLEARED UPSC MAINS exams)or the interview (if candidates can be selected after such pathetic interviews as you have listed,i am absolved of any remaining faith,I had in IAS exam).We already agreed on uselesness of two optional exams
    2)Your contention on quality of essays.Well luckily I have had a chance to discuss issues with many of my friends who have cleared civil services and some of my family members who are themselves Civil Servants.Unfortunately my view that essays are a sham and one year of good reading can get you through remains (Surprisingly this is even the view of candidates who happen to clear the exam,so I am not really arguing in isolation..)
    3)I dont really seem to understand why should a civil servant posses good essay writing skills.I would first test him on analytical abilities,problem solving skills and ability to work in cross functional mixed teams.The previous year essays fail to test these(I am ready to discuss any essay you pick from previous year papers)Besides I doubt if pshycholgical patterns like poor handwriting,neatness in paper etc doesnt influence a candidates chances in CIVIL SERVICES,simply because these factors are so deeply intangled in any paper checkers mindset that they are hard to remove

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  13. @arun contd...
    4)Your contention that optionals like admnistration etc are important ..i quite agree with you.However again a past analysis of the papers reveal the focus is more on testing the width of knowledge that the application of it.Moreover I am of opinion that the above factors can be better tested via group exercises,multiple interviews and assesment centres..which would be possible to conduct only if we reduce our target audience and hence better utilise the stresed interview resources
    5)The exam system is "the" reason for corruption ..simply because the system fails to select the candidates who can work in current stressed political system and yet mantain a high level of moral and ethical standards
    The whole purpose of campus recruitment is that candidates who have a proven track record of achievment and problem solving skill can then be tested on additional parameters (listed in post above)via means of multiple interviews ,assesment centres,group tasks,past performance in social activities ,academic and other achievemnts.Do you think it would be possible to do with 300,000 candidates who apply for civil services?..when we cant even conduct intrviews properly for prelim qualified candidates.Is that really Greek..that you cant understand
    5)Finally if you read the blog correctly I never asked for complete removal of direct entrance process.I said we need a two tiered approach wherin we can recruit a mix of campus and direct recruits and for direct recruits we need to change the system entirely.Heres what I propose for direct recruitment:
    1)A common preliminary paper be conducted to test analytical abilities and problem solving skills (i agree MCQ's is not the best way but do you have a better option with the large pool of candidates)
    2)Segregate candidates on basis of posts avaliable and design specific papers wrt the solutions to be delivered.Papers should be of CASE STUDY format and require combined application of specific knowledge,problem solving skills.
    4)Multi level assesment centres be conducted for candidates shortlisted in above two stages.The assesment centres should consist of multiple interviews,group exercises and psychometric testing while candidates live together for a designated time period.
    Scores in previous stages be gives "0" weight age for final selection
    Also the ratio of direct recruits be not more than 25% of total posts
    I look forward to answering your subsequent comments,in addition if you want we can have a live chat on the above matter

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  14. PS:I never wanted to join Civil Services ,I am more for the allure of money(sinned may I be :)).I have written this post because any person who sees the system with a neutral mindset would feel the same way.
    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20091213/edit.htm#2
    The above article on revamping civil services is written by a recently passed IRS officer,the views though not entirely same atlest point out that the current system ROTS

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  15. Hi Sumeet,

    Agree to the point that certain of techniques used by Jack Welch can be used in any public institutions....But why an Indian civil servant is not as famous as Jack Welch is irrelevant..A bureaucrat works behind the scenes..
    An Indian civil servant is just a subordinate to the people's representatives.Generally he is not given a free hand to run an organisation and he is not supposed to singlehandedly reform the system(The election commission has some special priviliges & power which other institutions cannot claim)..The bureaucracy is not a single entity working for itself.He/she is a tool at politician's(ideally people's) hand.


    I feel it strange that you do not realize the writing skills a civil servant should possess.And what else should reflect this ability than essay papers(I meant the paperS 3,4and 5..4 and 5 are G.S)..imagine a country run by bureaucrats who is not an expert in drafting a bill for the home minister to present in the parliament,who is not an expert in presenting india`s position for the environment minister to read out in the global climate summit,who-a DM- is not an expert in writing to the central govt the social&environmental implications of a particular project in his district,who do not know the nuances of the language.


    I dont buy the argument that papers 2,3,4 and 5 combined do not test the candidates ability and knowledge in administration and social issues.Group exercises cannot replace thsese papers.As I have already said I can agree,to an extent, on the two optionals, but the essay papers cannot be replaced by any group exercises.It is impossible for any candidate to have an indepth knowledge in law,sociology,public ad,history and environment sciences at a time...but the candidate should have a wide and considerable knowledge in all thsese areas and the G.S pAPers and English essays combined test this.



    Again I dont understand how campus recruitment from colleges can test these abilities.So you really think that upsc should go to the colleges across the country and conduct this tests for them??!!You will be well aware that public institutions cannot go and offer prestigious jobs to a selected college or without opening the doors equally to all the students in the country who crosses the eligibility criteria.(Are you asking for more discretion from the UPSC bosses so that they can conduct it according to their whims and fancies.)
    If anyone is interested in serving the govt it shows no discretion whether you are a doctor or an engineer or a history student and the candidates should show the minimum willingness to write the exam instead of the govt going to them

    It appears too easy for me when you say that one year study and you clear the exam....You forget the fact that it is the most competitive of the exams in the country and less than one percentage of the students who write the exam will be able to enter any of the cadres....UPSC clearly does not look for a genius who solves mathematical puzzles or MCQs(if ie what you mean as the measure of analytical skills) with a 150 plus IQ to enter the services...There are much more personal qualities needed if one is supposed to possess enormous constitutional power at his disposition.
    The 'case studies' ,i guess will be a good option, but the exam is already big with 9 papers and I don`t think you can replace anything else( but perhaps an optional paper?).....
    If you look at the performances direct recrutees have given the service a good name much more than political appointees...

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  16. And I do not content that everything is perfect in current civil service exam..Iam only against the alternatives suggested...
    Iam for, the people ,who have proven their abilities and integrity in other areas, to join the top posts in govt(like Nilekani) by political appointments...but this can be practical only for the senior positions in govt and cannot be followed as a process for selection...

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  17. Hi Arun

    Thankyou for your comments above.
    1)I am glad you agree that techniques (even if not all) used by Jack Welch can be effectively applied in public service.This would generally imply that MBA grads are not useless for admin posts as contended by you earlier.Anyways I am of firm belief that specialized knowledge (including that gained by an MBA)combined with good problem solving ability and people contact is one of the basic traits a civil servant
    Also your contention that a CEO has a free hand while civil servant is not ,is entirely misguided. In fact a CEO has to report to notorious institutional investors,board members, government ,shareholders and face tough opposition to all changes.On the other hand a civil servant has quite a free hand or similar challenges as that of a CEO.Generally my personal experience tells me because of the short duration ministers spend in a particular portfolio,they are more or less dependent on IAS officers,and hence the civil servants enjoy more or less free hand.(but if the candidate is stupid enough to not even realize this,,, whose fault it is)
    2)I agree writing skill are imp but my contention over here is the primary importance should be given to problem solving,analytical skills,ability to comprehend peoples problems etc. What would be better..a DC officer who can find out a way to improve public support systems or a DC who can write brilliantly but not devise a single practical soln.The answer seems quite obvious.What concerns me that stupid skills of essay writing are being given imp over more imp skills.If these are so imp why not make the best writers and authors or lawyers the civil servants..they can certainly write brilliantly.Besides most IAS officers are supported by advocates and other ppl who can draft bills for him/her.
    3)Your contention that optionals and wide knowledge is required .Well I agree wide knowledge is required for CERTAIN POSTS,but there are better methods to test it.Group Exercises were not suggested this thing.Multiple interviews can best test width as well as application of that knowledge
    4)Campus recruitment ,I repeat again is a better process because it narrows down the candidates from whom you select.Bear in mind as an HR manager,interview is the best way to select a candidate..all other methods are just shortlisting means because of impossibility to conduct a large no. of interviews.
    \Moreover if the govt is not allowed to go to specific colleges then it should be changed.If US ,UK and other Western Governments can visit best campuses (some even outside their home country) to select best candidates ..whats wrong if we do so?Moreover I am for a twin system where campus recruitment and direct (exam based) recruitment go together.The point is the best candidates with proven track record should not be stressed to prepare for useless exams.Moreover the goal of any HR (public/private) recruitment policy is to attract the best candidates.UPSC exam system acts as a deterrant for so many IIT/IIM and other grads who would like to join civil service
    4)You seem to have misunderstood the meqaning of direct recruitment.I refer to exam based recruitment by this method
    5)Agreed Civil service is highly competitive exam in India,but then in India any national exam is highly competitive.Its easier to get selected in Harvard than IIM A for instances.What should matter us more is whether the competitiveness is being used to test right parameters or the cramming and slogging ability of candidates.Moreover IIt/IIm grads have already proved their mettle in much more competitive and difficult exam and recruitment system.We can assure them direct interviews after screening their college and extra curricular/work ex (in case of MBA) performance
    At the end of the day the inefficiency of our bureaucracy (supported by numerous int surveys many African counteries have a better beuraucracy than India)is an indicator of faliure of UPSC system

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  18. Seems to go round and round with the discussions.
    when I said jack welch`s certain techniques can be applied in public organisations it does not mean that MBA`s are good for public administration.Being an MBA and being a public servant are entirely different things which I have already stated in the first comment.If an MBA has a penchant for civil servant then a doctor and engineer are equally suited for the job...ie why separate tests are conducted..
    Writing skills are very very important.Should I give more egs than this...Writing an essay is not like writing fiction(author!!)...lets leave that.Writing reflects the thought process of the candidate which should be closely scrutinized by the examiner.And writing also reflects the analytical and logical skills of the candidate....
    US and UK govt select from other countries to run their govt!!!!?

    .So you really think those who pass the JEE and CAT are more rightly tested for the parameters suited for a civil servant than the present C.S exam.....Then I have nothing more to say....
    You feel that primary test for a country`s civil servant is that they should be geniuses capable of cracking any prblm in mathematics and physics where their mettle is tested...??(I gues you are contradicting yourself)

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  19. //Moreover the goal of any HR (public/private) recruitment policy is to attract the best candidates.//
    Best in what is the question we were discussing...
    The temperament required for an employee who is supposed to do jobs involving lot of innovation in MNC should be different from that of a job required in
    indian army....

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  20. ThE Chief of SBI(not a civ serv post,,just for the sake of eg) cannot decide on a one fine morning that new banks should be opened only in urban areas which will help the bank to gain more profit but chief of Standard Chartered can decide the same......this is just one diff between being Jack welch and being the head of say LIC.

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  21. It seems you would never agree though you are unable to support yourself with either facts or reasons.MBA's are certainly better suited for admnistrative positions than what your foolish cracked system pulls out every year.But alas you would never agree..how can you assume that MBA's can only see commercial aspects of a problem.perhaps your knowledge is poor or you have trained your mind to stop seeing the reason.An MBA is taught to deliever on set of key KRA's they might be profits as in case of a commercial organisation or social welfare as in case of government.For your information I would like to add "profit" and increased share holder value is not the motive of international NGO's and UN.But yet they recruit from international MBA campuses.
    But you will not agree,simply because in your quest for civil services sme stupid essay or teacher has crammed the fact that MBA's are trained to meet only one need "profits".If that were so Nilekani wouldnt have been called to government and so hundreds of business leaders who are called to serve in high posts every year.If thats possible at end of their business tenure why not in the beginning??Face it MBA's are better suited for pure admin positions.In atest sample of 100 70% MBA's would be found suitable,and maybe just 10-15%of docs and engineers..so why a test??..in any case IAS exam wont even pull out those 10-15%
    2)you will not acknowledge the fact that our system produces the most inefficient beureucracy in the world
    3)Not only US and UK ..amny European countries do recruit some of their civil servants from international campuses,in a bid to provide improved administration.In any case campus visits by governments is nothing new in the west.I have already provided some links above.Try using Google for more information.
    4)JEE ans CAt test a person much better on his /her problem solving ability.If you have an iota of doubt in it..good luck to you my friend.Additionaly I am only suggesting to use this as a beginning pool and then shortlist candidates and make final selections.Is it so greek for you to understand that it might be possible for UPSC to conduct say 4-5 rounds of interviews and 2-3 group exercises and assesment centres across few top IIT/IIM and other premier unis,s but not for 300,000 candidates who apply for the posts across India.Or you feel the primary test of a civil servant should be his ability to write glorious essays and issue press starments in defense while the general "junta" suffers.
    Regarding SBI..the government nationalised bankings 4 decades ago but yet 90% of our farmers go to local moneylenders for their financing needs.The govt and top IAS officers created rural branches but didnt have enough analytical skills to ensure they remained useful to farmerers. Let me give you a very personal anecdote here.In Punjab rural banking has a very high penetration index.Yet Punjab government gives its social welfare workers and poor people pensions by cash.The result high leakages and corruption.If we had an MBA at top he would surely have enough brains to design schemes in a better way.
    You know it seems quite pretty saying commercial and social aspects are quite different.But at end of day its all about achievement of objectives.The present system has failed us..so why not give the new system a try...we are already at the bottom ..can there be something worse?..maybe introduce specialised subjects like public policy mgmt in top institutes (IIM B already has one)..i am open for it but the system needs to go

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  22. to add to it going by your line of thought ,the most suitable persons for post of IAS officers would be likes of LAlus or CPI bossres..they can connect to junta most easily,and it is they who decided for nationalization not the babus

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  23. 1)You are doing simple personal attacks when you don`t have any facts to support your argument.
    Master of Business Administration and Public Administration are two different things.What you learn in MBA class is not primarly about the ethos of Indian people or the cultural diversity of India or the constitution of India ,let them pass the exam to prove their mettle.

    2)Greedy investment bankers mainly who are MBAs and quants are responsible for financial crisis.Does that mean all MBAs are stupid greedy fellows and we should do away with the selection process to business schools...!!
    3)The primary test for a civil servant is screening ie preliminary round which are objective and consist of a mix of G.K and some 20% analytical questions.I don`t understand your frustration to essays.Essays are the part of main examination.Essay does not mean you need to write flowery language ,it means you need to put the logic and facts of your argument forward in a concise manner.

    4)If solving mathematical problems(In JEE and CAT) and data interpretation are the fundamental qualities needed in a public servant then I don`t have anything more to say on this.giving objective questions is not the only method to test your analytical skills.

    5)You seem to lack understanding how a democratic country works.Lalu and CPM have a considerable vote share in Bihar,Kerala,West Bengal and Tripura.Serving people is not implementing your elitist ideas on people.it needs consensus.Intolerance to political class in a democracy by the bureaucrat makes the worst kind of civil servant.

    6)Talking about the system in the country is a broader argument and cannot be connected to the selection process to the civil service.If you think a market based economy is ideal then that makes a diffrent discussion.

    7)'if we had MBA at top': is not a valid argument:ie clearly your biased position without anything to substantiate.A large no of civil servants left the service to get lucrative jobs in private sector...Goswamy was made as the vice president of Sahara;many civil servants quit the service to take top jobs in private sector attracted by lucrative offers of MNCs....and you alone think they are not qualified enough as the MBAs!!..You fault civil servants for collective failures

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  24. //.In atest sample of 100 70% MBA's would be found suitable,and maybe just 10-15%of docs and engineers....//
    I this your opinion or any sample study relevant to indian services???

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  25. //An MBA is taught to deliever on set of key KRA's they might be profits as in case of a commercial organisation or social welfare as in case of government.//
    you stll think business administration is same as administration of a country.....then jack welch or Iacocca should have been the best suitable candidate for US president...or the best candidate for the cabinet secretary.......

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  26. //Regarding SBI.//
    You yourself are diverting the topic..SBI, I gave just as an eg for stating that the aims of public institution is different from private companies and the CEO of a standard chartered and SBI works with different aims and constraints.when you said like this(//but if the candidate is stupid enough to not even realize this,,, whose fault it is//)

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  27. //But you will not agree,simply because in your quest for civil services sme stupid essay or teacher has crammed the fact that MBA's are trained to meet only one need "profits"//

    I could say the same to you ..I said MNCs work for profit...prove me wrong....and dont mix MNC and NGO....MBA degree is not a criteria to know whether the candidate possess sufficient knowledge base in constitution,environment,sociology etc of the country to possess enormous decision power in public matters is all what i say...If an MBA has it then an engineer or a history student also has it...

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  28. 1)"Master of Business Administration and Public Administration are two different things"
    a)The Civil Services exam is used to select people for posts as diverse as a diplomat,a DC,and a revenue service officer
    i)All of the above do not even require specialised knowledge which you are talking about and the knowledge that is required is not tested by the exam.for eg what skills of diplomacy is tested by a candidate who passes the exam with disconnected optionals
    ii)Most of the civil servants (even assuming your contention is true) are concerned with design and implementation of government policies.The POLICIES are themselves designed by POLITICIANS..so THE MID DAY MEAL scheme was more of a politicans mind..its implementation that of an IAS officer..FACTS to support
    a)The IAS officers have failed to design specific solutions for policies simply because the necessary knowledge and analytical skills..something which an MBA prepares you for for eg
    PW Coopers is working with Government Of India to help device solutions for e governance and panchayti raj reforms (these projects are being conducted by MBA's from top institutes..so in the end IIM grads wre making implementation schemes for panchayti reforms.)
    Top Managment COnsultancy companies have been appointed to advice our beuraucrats on ways to check tax evasion in India (ABC and Mc Kinsey India Ltd)
    PWC India helped Government of Punjab to introduce improved governance and devise means to reduce corruption
    Check sites of the top managment consultancy companies and you will see how much work MBA's are already doing..what could have been done by our IAS officers
    Operations and process replanning is one of the major functional areas of an IAS officer.Dont you think its high time our beuraucrats start being tested on analytical and problem solving skills over essay writing.Moreover the very fact that public admin is not a compulsary subject in civil service throws your entire argument in dust.
    In the end I even doubt of knowledge of no. of UT's in India or theories of public admin is really helpful.(The exam in any case tests only width of knowledge never application of it..you would agree on this point)
    iii)They can certainly pass the exam and prove their mettle.However the more imp point here is with lucrative offers arrving at campus,may brilliant minds would rather start earning than waste their time preparing for civil services.I never argues for exclusive campus recruitments.I only say that those who have already proved their mettle earlier be allowed direct interviews (after shortlisting of course) and group exercises.In any case a brilliant mind leaving to work for private sector is a national loss (and believe me their are many such cases)
    FACT
    US govt offers not only direct campus recruitment but also negotiated campus salary across domains to brillian minds at top US campuses.
    In the end I would be satiated if you could prove to me (via specific ref to previous exam questions)that civil services exam
    a)tests APPLICATION
    of knowledge simultaneously in multiple domains of law,sociology and public admin
    b)CAMPUS RECRUITS are highly improbable to connect to INDIAN PEOPLE or understand the social purposes of public policy (for your information an MBA is often a preferred degree for persons to move up the civil services in the WEST..I am open for government asking IIT/IIM's to add more electives on public policy managment )
    2)"Greedy investment bankers..."
    Concerning the specific example the point is highly debatable,I would request you to hold the debate on this for a few days,as I am specifically preparing a post on it
    However even if we assume the above were true,MBA's merely deliverd on the objectives organisation gave them "profits"..in public sector they can deliever on similar or different set of KRA's
    Inefficiency of beuraucracy has a direct co relatoin with the recruitment system..if you dont agree with this ,good luck to you
    3)"If solving.."

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  29. 3)"If solving.."
    The importance of designing and implementing specific solns by an IAS officer has already been highlighted by me in the points above.
    MCQ's may not be the best way..agreed but its atleast better than nothing (or low weightage of them)
    4)"Intolerance...."
    The point was meant to indicate that only persons of a particular mindset should be allowed to become IAS officers by your line of reasoning.This is against the democratic nature of our country.Moreover going by your line of reasoning a person who has knowledge of Indian traditions but no sense on how to improve quality of life of its citizens would make a good IAS officer (since the exam primarily tests width of knowledge).
    5)
    'if we had MBA at top': is not a valid argument:ie clearly your biased position without anything to substantiate"
    I have pointed out a no. of facts but somehow you never take notice of it
    1)Among the best admnistrators our country has produced till date a large majority are from IIT/IIM and other premier universities
    2)The Western Counteries who have followed the practice of recruitning MBA and other professionals for specific system have a much more efficient BEURAUCRACY (not governmnet)(read US,UK
    The importance of designing and implementing specific solns by an IAS officer has already been highlighted by me in the points above.
    MCQ's may not be the best way..agreed but its atleast better than nothing (or low weightage of them)
    4)"Intolerance...."
    The point was meant to indicate that only persons of a particular mindset should be allowed to become IAS officers by your line of reasoning.This is against the democratic nature of our country.Moreover going by your line of reasoning a person who has knowledge of Indian traditions but no sense on how to improve quality of life of its citizens would make a good IAS officer (since the exam primarily tests width of knowledge).
    5)
    'if we had MBA at top': is not a valid argument:ie clearly your biased position without anything to substantiate"
    I have pointed out a no. of facts but somehow you never take notice of it
    1)Among the best admnistrators our country has produced till date a large majority are from IIT/IIM and other premier universities
    2)The Western Counteries who have followed the practice of recruitning MBA and other professionals for specific system have a much more efficient BEURAUCRACY (not governmnet)(read US,UK,NZ,Australia etc)
    3)The UN and NGO's have very similar goals
    (though not exactly same)as those of government.If MBA's can achieve success there,why not in public service4)I am all for an open recruitment system.If there are some specific positions which indeed require a very deep knowledge of law,public admin then we can as well recruit from top law schools and universities

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  30. 6)."In atest sample of 100 70% MBA's would be found suitable,and maybe just 10-15%of docs and engineers.."
    The statment in question is based on MIT Sloan Research Report (MIT SLoam OCt 1978, pg 17-25).I was not able to find a free copy online and hence cant post the link here.
    At IIT Kgp we are working on a similar study and woul publish the results once avaliabe
    Additionaly I would try to upload a scanned copy of the report very soon
    7)Already discussed above
    8//Regarding SBI.
    This was meant to show the inefficiency of the example you had given earlier .The faliure lies in the fact that despite all the power our beuraucrats couldnt find a way to make rural banking a success (maybe they could have if they had consulted Mc Kinsey or Delloitte or PWC ..blah)
    9)The purpose of NGO example was to point out the fact that in situations where delieverable KRA's were similar to those of public servants,MBA's have excelled.i never mixed MNC and NGo
    Moreover though unrelated most companies have a key set of values which are tested for in candidates at interview process.The key set of values in government (integrity etc) can as well be tested in interview and other innovative HR testing mechanisms

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  31. You tell that the skills of the diplomats are not properly tested even by the present system of exams(which is true).Diplomat is the one should be the most proficient in language,culture,economy and system of governments across the world(You doubt that also!!!?).You expect an IITian to posssess these skills just because he knows where to apply Laplace eqn.Aren`t you contradicting with yourself about the optionals??

    Who told you that the implementaion of midday noon scheme was a failure across India?
    PW coopers is a consulting firm..Consultance and implementaion on the ground are two different things...IIM grads are not implementing policies ;they are consulted and if found suitable it is implemented..Govt consulting agencies that are specialised in sthng is not a new thing.
    So if PWcOOPERS are consulted how does that make a case for changing the pattern of exam?

    G.Studies paper tests various aspects of the candidate (check G.S papers for the past several years) in knowledge of governance and pub ad...You seem to suppose that there are no G.S papers in the exam which is one of the most important part of the main exam and which to a considerable extend tests ,sociology,pub ad,economy,history or other subjects.So are you really arguing for more indepth test in these aspects???


    Yes G.S papers tests only the width of knowledge but without having knowledge of fluid mechanics(however big your analytical skills are;)you are not supposed to design windturbines...Are you??
    Now testing 'what will he do' in a particular pressure situation in law and order problem or a particuar diplomatic problem cannot be done by giving him objective questions(am sure you will say that give him a objective problem but sadly challenges in administration and arts cannot be done as effectively like science problems....ie y subjective test is there in addition to the prelims)...so there is a limitation I agree... but what you are suggesting is--without even knowing fluid mechanics or basics of mechanical engineering he should design a windturbine because he has analytical skills.

    //CAMPUS RECRUITS are highly improbable to connect to INDIAN PEOPLE or understand the social purposes of public policy//
    I dont understand... was that a typo or you mean that connecting less with people is good?

    Inefficiency of bureaucracy is largely to do with lack of accountability which they may be thoroughly enjoying ,as also other apects of the self serving nature of bureaucracy....also I think performance based incentives and promotions etc should be given rather than high politics in the circle..I dont understand your statement 'directly related to recruitment'...


    //The point was meant to indicate that only persons of a particular mindset//
    Dont you think that the current method which takes student from arts,science,engineering(yesyes IITs include) etc is the right mix of people with various background,,,,

    //This is against the democratic nature of our country//
    I dont understand where democracy entered the scene ;may be you are telling there should be a right cultural and educational mix which is already there by selecting students from varied educational backgrounds..

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  32. 5))Let me examine
    the supporting arguments
    1)Who are those administrators of the country please???You really mean business administartors or political administrators??
    Other than civil servants(who obviously passed the exam) acting as subordinates of the executive the administartors of the country should be in politics....i dont know many who are holding minister post from IIT/IIM atleast in a state(by the way there was a political party run exclusively by IIT/IIMians in last two loksabha elections...cant hear anything of it these days.) ....Besides that, I can give you a number of ministers who are coming from civil service background...who is that best administrators you said???


    2)As a socialist country with the bureaucrats occupying high commanding power over a poor population and India being a country with a feudal background lead to a selfserving system....How are you relating that to the comparitively low profile civil servants(I meant entry posts) in the west???Where is the fault of exam in this......A number of IITians are here in the civil service.....Anyone of them revolutionised the system with analytical skills????

    3)You tell that you are for an open recruitment system and you don`t agree that the present system is open by selecting from each and every background ..iam confused now what your contention is...Whether your problem is with the system in which present bureaucracy functions or with the exam keeping the present system intact?....If your problem is with the system then one who has passed the C.S exam with optionals related to science should be given positions related to science and one who has passed the C.S exam in medicine as optional should be given in health care depts of the govt...ie the problem(if it is aproblem at all) with the system not the exam.

    6)70% of MBA suitable for administation of country I hope ie what the report reads...Let me see the report

    7)----

    8)You are mixing things..The job of a consultant firm and a civil servant are completely different,,whether the administration unit of a country need to consult McKinsey in a specialisation area is altogether different question.....(and SBI chiefs are professionals experienced in banking ,not civil servants ;and whatever it is I wonder you only see the negatives of such a big brand and the best bank in india)

    9)
    Yes Though I dont know how effective it is I support psychometry tests(anyway I feel that a person with average intelligence can disguise his actual intentions...it seems less effective than a thorough interview)...integrity should be an important component...Many of those who join the service show big commitments at the beginning and later move with the rotten system...

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  33. read the line as (*Anyone of them revolutionised the system with their SUPREME analytical skills????) NOT DEGRADING ANALYTICAL SKILLS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT BUT THAT ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH

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  34. And Sumeet

    I feel particularly strange when at some point you say Chanakya and Vallabhai Patel are the biggest administrators and any system which do not have allowed their entry to the service should be done away......
    I don`t know how you are conviniently assuming that both of these men could have passed the JEE or the CAT or atleast known where is the centre of mass of a cone or what is the last digit of 7^2048......
    Anyway I hope sardar patel ,a well read and able lawyer, should have passed the verbal cut off of CAT atleast...

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  35. Adding to that I cant stop reminding you how well the best school of management in the country managed to conduct the CAT2009 with all the MBAs around.....and you are talking about "how well the MBAs would have implemented monumental schemes like midday meals or mammoth elections in the country"......

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  36. 1 "(which is true)."This is the point I wanted you to agree on.So you basically agree that the exam does not test what is required out of numerous different category of civil servants.
    Regarding diplomats,I agree merely possesing strong analytical skills wont make a good diplomat.But anyhow even you would agree that ability to quickly respond to a particular problem is an important skill which a diplomat must possess.Also all the skills you mentioned are definately important but dont you think abetter indicator of these abilities would be group exercises (a diplomat works with so many diff people),multiple interviews (where else can you best test the use of flowery language in a cunning way) from across different premier campuses (and not only IIT's..we can go to IIM's ,premier Indian law colleges etc).Moreover I believe diplomacy and many other positions filled by civil services are more about some in born traits which can never be tested in any written examination (least of all in a faulty designed exam like civil services)
    In any case whats wrong in having a two wayed system which allows entry thru i)campus recruitmet ii)specific written exams
    I suggest campus recruits as an alternative because
    i)Some of the most talented candidates at our premier campuses wont like to give up lucrative job offers and prepare an year for civil services
    ii)Many new and more scientific methods of HR recruitment require direct contact with candidate.Its surely not possible to apply these methods for all 300,000 odd candidates sitting for civil services
    2)Regarding consultancy again you seem to believe that all civil servants are only posted as admnistrators .However most CIVIL servants are more concerned with design and then effective implementation of policies.There are very few positions where implementation and design aspects of job are independent.So if an IAS officer cant design properly,what will he implement.For example consider a civil servant admnistrating a premier health institution.Is it not his responsibility to strategically design:
    1)how to effectively manage rush of patients
    2)how to attract and retain the best medical staff in the region
    3)how to efficiently manage corruption and expenses
    The above require more direct application of problem solving and analytical skills.
    Similarly the work done by PW Coopers in example given above is actually that of an IAS officer.In many states IAS officers are actually doing what PW did in Punjab (of course it did it in a much more effective way).Moreover these firms are not only consulting but working together with govt. to implement the policies so framed.
    In any case a top executive (public/private)has to fulfill multiple roles of a consultant,an admnistrator and a strategic planner
    3"having knowledge of fluid mechanics(however big your analytical skills are;)you are not supposed to design windturbines...Are you??"
    Agreed ,but what use is an engineer who has knowledge of flui9d mechanics but cant design a wind turbine.
    50% engineers passing out of India are deemed unemployable ,not because they dont have the necessary knowledge but because they dont know how to implement it

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  37. 4//CAMPUS RECRUITS are highly improbable to connect to INDIAN PEOPLE or understand the social purposes of public policy//
    I think you didnt read the statment in the context of the previous few lines.If you re read it,I think you would understand what I meant.
    5'directly related to recruitment'...
    I agree with what you have said.However,knowing the corrupt system that prevails in our country dont you think civil servants would find a way to bend the rules again (I MA NOT AGAINST any of the measures (performance based pay etc) suggested by you)
    Wouldnt it be better if we design a system which filters in only those kinds of candidates who would buckle under pressures of our corrupt system (Do you really think the written exam can do that)
    /The point was meant to indicate that only persons of a particular mindset//
    Again you seem to have got the context wrong.mindset meant thinking-socialist,liberal etc (more on that further down)
    //This is against the democratic nature of our country// same as above

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  38. 5
    i)I meant civil servants.The civil servants from IIT/IIM's hav by and large performed much better than others.google the backgrounds of civil sevants behind RTI,computerization of tax collection,introduction of e governance etc
    (I am not making this statment on basis of my personal opinion but the views are frequently aired by many civil servants themselves)
    Maybe not many IIT/IIMs are not holding a ministeral bearth But how does that turn out to be a valid argument for non effectivness of IIT/IIM grads as admnistrators.IAS officers happen to be in politics because they are closer to their ministeral counterparts and can easily sell their "souls" for personal achievemnts
    ii)Agreed that plays a major role and call for reforms
    IIT'ians might not have created a revolution but they have certainly performed better.Again did the best IIT/IIM grads joined civil services or didnt waste their time preparing for it .Over past 40 years who has been the bigger losers..IITians or the state?
    iii)Do you believe that the system is open if people from different EDUCATIONAL backgrounds are allowed to write CS exam?Even that is on paper
    a Dont you think that the system is not really open for a candidate of a liberal mindset if his paper goest to an examiner with socialist mindset (essay paper) or an interview panel overtly composed of the old socialist bandwagon
    On the other hand due to limited campus interviews to be conducted,candidates can enjoy freedom of being judged multiple times by multiple panels
    b As discussed above,if the system acts as a deterrant for a brilliant mind to join civil services ..is it really OPEN?
    8)discussed above
    9)We both agree here so nothing much to discuss.Though I quite agree psychometry testing might be faked but over the years concepts such as testing of consistancy of thoughts and previous actions ,advanced techniques testing candidates on basis of pupil dialation,body temp (without candidate having knowledge of this testing)may make it much more reliable.However all this would be effective if we can conduct multiple exercises and interviews

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  39. "(which is true)."This is the point I wanted you to agree on.So you basically agree that the exam does not test what is required out of numerous different category of civil servants.

    pls read the full context.We need improvement of the exam not further erosion by the way you suggested.Go through the expert reports on the exam by Kothari,Satish Chandra, to get an understanding of the system.
    //Again you seem to have got the context wrong.mindset meant thinking-socialist,liberal etc (more on that further down)//
    You assume that if you choose to conduct group interviews then the conductors of the test are all liberal or all conservatives.You assume that those who value the test papers have all socialist mindset!!!!I cant stop telling that this is too funny.


    5 1)You are moving away from the claims you made???then its ok...you said the best administrators of the country were from IIT/IIM who got the virtue of being some govt sector only because they are from iit/iim ..I asked who are those administarotors?

    Anyway //IAS officers happen to be in politics because they are closer to their ministeral counterparts and can easily sell their "souls" for personal achievemnts//
    So all politicians sell their souls??the first part is true....the second part shows the lack of maturity in your opinion

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  40. "We need improvement of the exam not further erosion by the way you suggested Go through the expert reports on the exam by Kothari,Satish Chandra, to get an understanding of the system."
    Nothing substantial is proved through these reports.Nowhere is it suggested campus recruitment would erode the system.Anyways the debate now seems to have been shifted to the point that IAS Exam requires major rampifications and twin recruitment system is certainly a faliure (this is ur view)

    "ou assume that those who value the test papers have all socialist mindset!!!"Re read my argument .I never said so. I merely gave an example how unfair the exam can be to a candidate with liberal mindset if his paper goes to a socialist thinker.Campus Interviews will allow UPSC liberty of conducting multiple interviews and GI's with multiple panels...do u assume all would be socialists in all panels..now I think you are being very funny

    "I asked who are those administarotors?" and I did give you many examples

    "So all politicians sell their souls??the first part is true....the second part shows the lack of maturity in your opinion"
    Since you agree to the first part ,it implies your earlier argument that there are nt many IITians at top so they cant be exceptional admnistrators is flawed
    For second part ..you can call it lack of maturity and I would say you are arguing uselessly over what is an open secret.Perhaps you dont want to see the truth

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